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HRC - Press Conference: Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory - 19 June 2024
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Press Conferences , Edited News | HRC
Independent rights probe highlights Israeli army’s ‘dislocation and destruction’ tactics in Gaza
STORY: Commission of Inquiry - Occupied Palestinian Territories
SOURCE: UNTV CH
LENGTH: 2’39”
LANGUAGE: ENGLISH / NATS
ASPECT RATIO: 16:9
RESTRICTIONS: NONE
DATELINE: 19 JUNE 2024 GENEVA, SWITZERLAND
SHOTLIST
1. Exterior medium-wide, UN Geneva flag alley.
2. Wide, elevated camera shot of podium speakers and journalists.
3. SOUNDBITE (English) – Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem and Israel: “People from the north of Gaza move south and suddenly they get attacked in the south. We read all those contrary instructions as pointing to an attitude of not caring for their lives, destruction and dislocation.”
4. Medium-wide of the Press room with journalists.
5. SOUNDBITE (English) – Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem and Israel: “We adhere to the law; you cannot kill civilians, you have to protect them. With this occupation, based on all the information we gathered, it's pretty stark to us: there's a very clear intention of forcible dislocation of people just to force them out.”
6. Medium, speakers seated at podium.
7. SOUNDBITE (English) – Chris Sidoti, Member of the Commission of Inquiry: “I don't know whether it's one of the most moral armies in the world or not… But what I do have expertise in and what I do have authority to do is make assessments of criminal conduct. And we've done that in relation to the recent events and you can see that in the report. And the only conclusion you can draw is that the Israeli army is one of the most criminal armies in the world.”
8. Medium-wide, journalists and TV video journalists with cameras.
9. SOUNDBITE (English) – Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem and Israel: “Thousands of people are telling us that had it not been for the help of powerful countries, Israel would not have been able to carry out this perpetual occupation.”
10. Medium-wide, press room showing rows of seats, journalists and podium.
11. SOUNDBITE (English) – Chris Sidoti, Member of the Commission of Inquiry: “There are hostages that have been released. We would like very much to talk to them when it's appropriate to do so, taking into account the physical and psychological conditions. I mean, our first rule in evidence collecting is do no harm. So, at an appropriate time for them, we want to talk to them. We want to find out what happened.”
12. Medium, journalists listening, taking notes in the Press room.
13. SOUNDBITE (English) – Chris Sidoti, Member of the Commission of Inquiry: “This has happened time and time and time again. And this is the worst ever. This is the highest death toll ever in this protracted period of warfare. And there must be accountability for every specific act of criminality. But if we're going to stop it in the future, we also have to address the question of the context in which it has occurred.”
14. Close, cameraman at work.
15. Wide, journalists and TV video journalists to rear.
16. Close, journalist taking notes.
17. Medium, journalists in press room.
High-level independent human rights investigators reiterated serious concerns on Wednesday about the legality of the Israeli army's conduct in Gaza and pushed back at claims that their inquiry has done too little to highlight the ongoing ordeal of hostages captured by Palestinian militants.
“People from the north of Gaza move south and suddenly they get attacked in the south. We read all those contrary instructions as pointing to an attitude of not caring for their lives, destruction and dislocation,” said Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory including East Jerusalem and Israel.
Speaking on the sidelines of the Human Rights Council after presenting the Commission’s report on the initial months of the conflict, Ms. Pillay insisted that in accordance with the laws of war: “You cannot kill civilians, you have to protect them. With this occupation, based on all the information we gathered, it's pretty stark to us. There’s a very clear intention of forcible dislocation of people just to force them out.”
‘Third party’ support
Asked about the role of “third party” countries in both the large-scale bombing and the occupation of Gaza, Ms. Pillay replied that “again and again, thousands of people are telling us that had it not been for the help of powerful countries, Israel would not have been able to carry out this perpetual occupation”.
And in response to the discrepancy between the panel’s findings that war crimes have likely been committed by the Israeli Defense Forces and the current government’s representations of its soldiers as among the most "morally responsible" in the world, Ms. Pillay said that she remained extremely concerned about the widespread killing and destruction of public buildings including hospitals and one university “razed to the ground”.
“I don't know whether it's one of the most moral armies in the world or not, but what I do have expertise in and what I do have authority to do is make assessments of criminal conduct,” said fellow Commissioner Chris Sidoti. “And we've done that in relation to the recent events and you can see that in the report. And the only conclusion you can draw is that the Israeli army is one of the most criminal armies in the world.”
Massive human cost
Since Hamas-led terror attacks on multiple sites in southern Israel on 7 October claimed some 1,250 lives and left more than 250 captured as hostages, Mr. Sidoti noted that “thousands of children, women and men had been killed and injured - Palestinians, Israelis and citizens of other States”.
Responding to allegations that the Commission of Inquiry had done too little to investigate allegations of serious sexual abuse against hostages, Ms. Pillay highlighted the lack of cooperation and access by the Israeli authorities to victims of the 7 October attacks.
“They are denying the victims on the ground there from getting these voices, the authentic voices heard,” the independent rights investigator insisted, comments echoed by fellow Commissioner Mr. Sidoti: “There are hostages that have been released. We would like very much to talk to them when it's appropriate to do so, taking into account the physical and psychological conditions. I mean, our first rule in evidence-collecting is do no harm. So, at an appropriate time for them, we want to talk to them. We want to find out what happened.”
Hostage horror
Earlier in the Human Rights Council, the Commission asserted that the Israeli authorities had been responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity and that Hamas militants had also carried out war crimes of intentionally directing attacks against civilians and “patterns” of sexual abuse, primarily against Israeli women.
A representative from Israel who also spoke at the Council introduced herself as the mother of 23-year-old Romi Gonen, whose car carrying three other passengers was shot at by Hamas fighters who captured her on 7 October.
“As the only survivor, she was brutally dragged by her long, beautiful hair from the car, along the road. I was a witness to this reality while speaking with her on the phone, hearing her helplessness and frustration…That was 257 days ago, and 119 hostages were still being held incommunicado in the Gaza Strip to this day.”
Accountability principle
The Commission of Inquiry's search for transparency is standard procedure in human rights investigations and rooted in a desire to address the causes of unresolved conflicts - like the one in Gaza and the wider Middle East – and pursue accountability for the sake of the victims, the Commissioners explained.
“We've got to understand why this has occurred if we are interested in stopping it from happening again and that that that to me is the key point here,” Mr. Sidoti said. “This has happened time and time and time again. And this is the worst ever. This is the highest death toll ever in this protracted period of warfare…there must be accountability for every specific act of criminality. But if we're going to stop it in the future, we also have to address the question of the context in which it has occurred.”
About the Commission of Inquiry
The Commission of Inquiry was established by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate all alleged violations of international humanitarian law and abuses of international human rights law leading up and since 13 April 2021.
Its members are not UN staff and do not draw a salary.
ends
Teleprompter
OK, Good afternoon, everyone.
And, uh, thank you very much for joining us here at this press conference
with the Commission of Inquiry on the occupied Palestinian territory,
including East Jerusalem and Israel.
We're pleased to have with us here today the chair of the commission, Ms Navi
Pillay
in the centre, as well as fellow Commissioner Chris
Sidoti,
who wanted to take the this opportunity to speak
with you about the findings of their latest report.
As you may know,
the Commission of Inquiry was established by the Human Rights Council in uh 2021
and their latest report, as well as two additional detailed reports,
were published last week on 12 June
this morning here at, uh the Pali de N.
The commission has officially presented its findings to the Human Rights Council
during in an interactive dialogue with member
states which will continue this afternoon.
So with that, we can begin.
Commissioner Pillay will, uh, give some opening remarks followed by Commissioner
Sidoti
and then over to you for your questions.
Thank you.
Good afternoon,
everyone. Thank you for being here. As Todd said, we just presented our report
to the Human Rights Council's 56th session.
This is the body we report to, but we also report to the General Assembly
in New York which we will do in October.
Since 7 October,
our commission has carried out two parallel investigations,
first into attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Israel on seven
and 8 October,
and second into Israeli military operations and attacks
in Gaza between 7 October and 31st December.
And the report that we presented today
summarises the findings of our investigation.
But because
the investigation itself is so vast and so detailed, we accompanied this summary
by two conference room papers
that set out the details. And I do encourage you to look at those
between you and me.
I could see that some of the interveners in the interactive dialogue in the room
had clearly not looked at the details because there
was some criticism that we had not investigated sexual violence
sufficiently.
What I like
to emphasise is that our report represents
the United Nations first in depth investigation
of the events that took place on and since 7 October 23.
It was based on interviews with victims and witnesses conducted remotely and
during a mission to Turkey and Egypt.
It's based on thousands of open source items
which we had verified
through advanced forensic analysis,
with the help of the new and wide
experts and various departments. So really a collaborative effort.
We received hundreds of submissions.
So I always emphasise there is such interest out there in people reaching out to us,
especially since we are being denied access into Israel to see victims and families
who have a right
to have their voices and stories recorded at the United Nations.
So I welcome the hundreds of submissions that we
are receiving when we make a call for submissions.
We rely on satellite imagery and forensic medical reports.
Israel has obstructed
the commission's investigations and prevented its access
not only to Israel and Gaza but to the occupied Palestinian territory. So it's true
that our work in the
in the investigation, collection and safeguarding of evidence has been hampered.
It's not what we would like to do,
which is go and go to the ground and talk to witnesses ourselves.
In the eight months since 7 October, tens of thousands of Children,
women and men have been killed and injured
Palestinians, Israelis and citizens of other states.
Thousands of Palestinians have been detained
and are being held incommunicado,
and 120 Israeli hostages are still held in Gaza.
So the enormity of the tragedy does overwhelm us.
We are deeply disturbed by the immense human suffering,
and we call for an immediate cessation of hostilities.
We also call for all member states to support
ongoing accountability processes.
We welcome the statements made by several countries
in support of our report and the mandate
calling for a ceasefire
and calling for accountability for violations and crimes.
We were dismayed by statements questioning our mandates
once again and calling into question our findings. But both Chrisy
Dotty and I still have an opportunity to respond
to some of these interventions.
So we are here, then
with the press before
we can complete our work in the council.
Thank you.
Thank
you.
Chris, Did you have any remarks?
I would like just to say a few personal things before we start,
rather than canvassing the report,
Uh, Navi has referred to the fact that the enormity of this tragedy overwhelms us
and and it does profoundly.
It's completely understandable how deeply traumatic the
events on and since the seventh of October
have been for Jewish people in Israel and the diaspora around the world
and for Palestinian people and the Palestinian diaspora.
For Palestinians,
they have experienced
70 or 80 years
of dispossession, occupation,
human rights violation.
And this has now come on top of that.
For Jewish people,
the experience of millennia of persecution
is immediate and direct.
I'm neither Palestinian. No. Nor am I Jewish.
Um and I have not had those experiences.
But I, I try to understand how deeply traumatising what has occurred is
not only for those directly affected
but for all of those from the communities that have been affected.
This this work has been
overwhelming for us as
international United Nations investigators,
as our chair has indicated,
uh, it has placed enormous stress on our staff.
Um, it's been a a difficult assignment to deal
emotionally
and
empathetically
with the overwhelming nature of the events.
N not just the statistics, although they themselves.
Uh, just reading them
lead to a sense of of despair,
but also the personal stories.
We have had opportunities to speak directly to
people who were directly affected by what has happened
and It's their stories that are the most telling
and their stories that we need to hear the most significantly.
Um, our report barely scratches the surface.
Our reports there are three of them, almost 200 pages of them.
And we barely scratch the surface of what has happened since the seventh of October.
And as Navi has indicated,
we will continue that work. Um, the the these are the first instalments
of, regrettably,
a story that is not yet finished.
Um, there are more violations that are committed every single day,
and so our work is not finished,
and our further reports will continue to deal with it.
But I think that in much of the debate about
geo strategy
and international politics
and dy
dysfunctional United Nations agencies or organs like the Security Council
and the limitations of courts,
we often lose sight of the intensely human dimension
of what has occurred.
And I certainly want to refer to that
and have that in the forefront of our minds
as we have these discussions today.
Thanks.
Thank you, Commissioner
Salote. Thank you, Commissioner
Pillay. And now we can open the floor to questions.
Um uh, we'll take those from the room. Uh, to start, um, on the on the right.
We have, uh, Reuters. If you could please, uh, identify
self in the media outlet you work for.
Good afternoon. Emma Farge from Reuters. Uh, congratulations on your report.
Which has been, um, praised for how comprehensive it is,
no matter what side of the conflict you're on.
I wanted to ask about your hopes and expectations for what happens next. Um
MP.
Last time we spoke,
you you mentioned that you were having conversations with the IC C.
I was wondering if you could characterise the nature of those discussions.
And have you had any indication that they'll use this evidence?
Thanks very much.
Sure. Please.
First, let me say, Emma,
our
mutual respect of admiration for Reuters.
So we do rely on your reporting as well. Thank you.
You know,
I'm I'm particularly concerned about issues that do not receive focus such as
8000 plus
8500 people being held in detention. Just picked up, held in communicado.
I grew up in apartheid South Africa. That's what I did as a defence lawyer
and brought out the issue of torture that happens in incommunicado,
indefinite detention.
And of course, my husband was also detained.
So there is a personal experience there.
So I agree with Chris that
we are independent
information gatherers. We put this out there,
and we want to be very fair address, all issues, but we fully appreciate
the impact on victims
in any conflict. So that's the importance of this work.
However, my own experience in apartheid South Africa and the fact that we ended it
with quite a bit of litigation in the apartheid courts is what fills me with hope.
So I want to emphasise
that that would be my message
to all those suffering in the present conflict.
To be hopeful. It's difficult for them to digest that when
for close to 70 years they've been under occupation.
What I'm hopeful and it's true. I was at the IC C. Yes,
uh, I CJ yesterday
in another capacity,
and so fulfilled in hope
that for the very first time,
the General Assembly has asked the International Court of Justice for its opinion
on whether the occupation itself is unlawful, whether occupation is the root cause
of the conflict,
because that's what we're hearing from people on the ground wherever we speak.
Um, so something that had not happened
in about 70 years has now happened
because of the recommendations made by this commission
and all.
You know, Chris and I are sitting here, but really,
credit should go to the team that works
extraordinary hours to get this information out.
So that's one aspect that the ICJ is presently
deliberating on whether the occupation itself is unlawful.
And secondly, what are the responsibilities of states
that support this unlawful
activity
with the ICC?
We welcome our own efforts in trying to reach out to the prosecutor.
It took a number of efforts. I assure you, we didn't give up.
But I think eventually when he saw us, he realised the value
that we can provide in that we
have.
We are the only UN body with the investigative mandate.
In fact, when we go back into the Human Rights Council,
I'm going to say to the members of the
Human Rights Council what an important thing they did
by giving us this expanded mandate,
which means
although there so much calls for investigation and set up a commission of inquiry,
we were already there people appreciated that.
And when we made requests for information, the information poured into us.
We have the full co operation inside the United Nations.
As I said in my report. So with forensic investigation,
satellite tracking, we really have reliable information.
So
just to conclude we have a memorandum of
understanding with the prosecutor of the ICC,
we've now furnished them
with many, many tranches of information. As of 28 May,
the Commission has shared more than 7000 open source items with
the office of the prosecutor at the International Criminal Court.
And
this is information that has been verified, you know,
and I've learned lots of new words to geo locate.
Where it happens, we link one video piece to another
great effort and we've also shared more than 2000 open source
items with the government of South Africa because that's the channel
to bring it before the ICJ proceeding,
we will continue to furnish further information
to them as we gather the information.
So thank you for your question. I hope I've addressed it.
Thank you, Commissioner. Ok, um another question from the second row. Far left.
Thank you.
Uh, MP
for this briefing Stefan Bisa
from the
newspaper.
Uh,
you did mention in your introduction that, uh, you didn't address sufficiently
the sexual,
uh, violence issue. Could you elaborate? Elaborate A little bit on that.
And my second question is
you did
talk about the link between the
your report and what could be done with the IC C. I CJ what specifically,
uh, you know, IN. What terms could this report be very useful for the IC C and
I CJ thank you very much.
So, Stephen, I was quoting
what the ambassador of Israel and the Ambassador of Palestine said in the hall,
they both seemed to think we didn't
investigate sufficiently the violations that they are aware of.
Well, our investigation
must necessarily be hampered when we're not allowed there.
And I put it like this that by not giving us access
to Gaza, Israel and Palestine,
they are denying the victims on the ground there from getting their
voices, their authentic voices heard.
So we will continue to pursue that I feel really bolstered
by the fact that the International Court of Justice in the South Africa application
has that as one of the key orders is to allow access to the UN's investigation team
because everyone realises you have to have reliable information
for courts to act upon it.
You know, as United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights for six years
we supported the commissions and I often felt
that the important work was not being recognised,
so I was very pleased. I'm now serving as ad hoc judge in the
ICJ on the Myanmar matter
and I could see the importance of the Myanmar report,
the information they collected
and based on that
experience of mine, I am fairly certain that
all parties not only South Africa but
other parties who are joining in that application
will be looking to our report.
And so I readily acknowledge that it's not
what we had hoped to do. We would have done a much thorough job.
Chris went to Turkey and Egypt
and spoke with a number of victims. So you see, they are very willing to come to us.
It's much better if we could go to them and also to access those in detention,
the hostages, their families.
We do want to report on the
treatment of hostages and their health conditions very, very important.
So That's it. There's a complaint of not sufficient investigation.
We would like to address that.
And I
think that our reports will be relied on,
particularly by the International Criminal Court. They need evidence.
And as you know,
the authorities in Israel have declared as terrorist groups some of the
NGOs there who had announced that they would
be providing information and cooperating with the ICC.
So just for that statement, some of them have now been rendered out of action.
So just to say that, you know, with all security in place,
we are engaged with people with information.
Thank you.
Thank you, Commissioner. Um, we'll take a question in the back on the right.
Please, go ahead.
Yes. Hi. Thank you. And
the hole from A
in Geneva.
I have a
Yes. Do you hear me?
Yes. If you could speak up a little bit. OK?
All good.
So I'm Anne
from a FP in Geneva.
I have a question. The family of hostages are telling us that
the human rights of the hostages in Gaza
are on their view. Are counting very little to the to the eyes of the UN.
They think that there is a double standard.
So I wanted to ask you
What do you think of those accusations? Thank you.
Perhaps I couldn't respond to that.
Not in relation to the UN, cos I don't speak for the UN,
but I can in relation to the commission of inquiry.
Um, we We've made it clear in this report that this is only the beginning.
And I I said that in my opening comments.
Uh, in the report,
we dealt with the treatment of Israeli hostages during
the course of their abduction and taking to Gaza.
Um, we have not at that. We could not at that stage look beyond that.
Uh, but in in future reports, um, hopefully when we report to the General Assembly,
but it will depend on how much information we have.
Um, we will be dealing
with the treatment of all hostages, detainees, prisoners,
uh,
both by the de facto authorities in Gaza and by the Israeli authorities in Israel.
Um, not only were we unable in this report to investigate the 124 hostages
in Gaza,
we are unable to investigate the condition of the
8 to 10,000 prisoners in Israeli prisons as well
so that that is very much on our agenda.
But one thing I would emphasise in saying that,
um is the importance of access to information.
Um, we cannot report if we don't have the information.
Um, there are hostages that have been released.
We would like very much to talk to them.
when it's appropriate to do so taking into
account their their physical and psychological conditions.
I mean, our our first rule in evidence collecting is do no harm.
So at an appropriate time
for them, we want to talk to them. We want to find out what happened.
Uh, and that's going to require the Cooper operation of the Israeli government.
And if if we can't do it adequately,
it will be because
it will be because we have been obstructed in our capacity to collect evidence. So
we want to do it. Um, we are collecting evidence already.
We are not ready yet to report. We hope to be able to do so soon,
but our ability to do so will depend upon the evidence we can collect.
Thank you.
Um, let's take, uh, one question online, Uh, first from, uh,
Laurence Sierra from the Swiss news agency.
Please go ahead.
Yeah, Thank you for taking my question.
Um, if I read the report correctly, you mentioned the word genocide once, uh,
when you talk about the hate speeches
that might incite to to to genocide,
in the in future reports,
do you plan to assess whether some of all of the eight criteria for genocide are met
in the current situation? Or do you precisely consider
that it's, uh, it's It's a decision.
As it is a decision that has to be made by the court.
It's gonna be only the the work of, uh, I CJ and IC C. Thank you.
I think both of us would like to say something about this.
You know, that's a very good question, Lauren,
because as the judge on the Rwanda tribunal
who delivered the world's first judgement on genocide,
I tended to always say you cannot label something genocide until a court finds it.
So,
uh,
but
since then, you know, since I'm no longer sitting as a judge there,
I realised that how then are you going to track events leading up to genocide?
Indications of genocide,
plausible indications of genocide? We are now strengthened because there is
the provisional order decision by the
ICJ.
I think that empowers strengthens us to do look in terms of genocide.
Many, many people are concerned about this.
They do consider genocide as the most serious
offence and why aren't we dealing with?
I would also say that
I have some constraints in the fact that our mandate comes
from the Human Rights Council and they have not put genocide
into our mandate.
But as I say, I've since changed my mind. I'll work closely with our team
to follow whether the elements of genocide
are
being shown here in this conflict.
And I'd like to answer by just referring to
the investigative methodology.
I mean, when when you conduct an investigation like this,
you don't start out by saying I plan to deal
with genocide or I plan to deal with war crimes.
The the starting point is the collection of facts evidence
and then on the basis of that evidence, forming conclusions as to what occurred
and then on the basis of those conclusions,
applying the relevant law
and coming to a legal analysis and decision
so we don't plan to do anything in relation to that. We plan to look at issues.
But if the issue of genocide
uh, is an issue that needs to be addressed because of the facts that we find,
then we'll have to consider whether we do it or not.
And I put that that last qualification on it
because
it
is before the court at the moment.
And we we were also quite conscious of the fact that only three months ago,
the special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories,
uh, in her annual report, dealt extensively with the issue of genocide.
And
when there are more issues than we can possibly deal with
arising from what has happened over the last eight months,
there's not much point
in us delving intensively into questions that
other UN independent mechanisms have looked at.
we we have not dealt with so many issues or yet,
so
my my answer would be we don't plan that way.
We will collect evidence. We will make factual findings.
We will decide what the applicable law is to be
considered in the context of them,
And if that takes us to genocide and the and the discussion of genocide,
then we'll discuss it.
Thank you. All right, let's take a question from the back of the room, please.
Go ahead.
Thank you,
Al.
In
TV,
I
have a question about the role of third party parties in this tragedy.
The parties that supply Israel with weapons like the big bombs. £2000.
The commission spoke about that this morning.
How you see this role? There is something mentioned in your report about that.
Thank you.
We, um
I have included that in our first report to the General Assembly
where that was October 23
where we identified as the root cause of the conflict. That's part of our mandate.
Identify what's the root cause of the mandate.
And we just based on all the evidence
we gathered and the
the law that we analyse international law said the root cause is the occupation
because it's been there in perpetuity
and it must,
in our view, it's unlawful.
And we also said an opinion should be sought from the International Court of Justice
on the legality lawfulness of the occupation and secondly,
the responsibility of states
who support that endeavour.
So I'm happy that our recommendation has been turned into
a resolution and now, before the
ICJ
so
very much aware
that again and again thousands of people are telling us that
had it not been for the help of powerful countries,
Israel would not have been able
to carry out this perpetual occupation
as aggressively as it has.
And I'll just add one thing.
Um, and that is to refer to a decision taken by the Human Rights Council in March.
Um, the council, uh, has specifically,
um asked us authorised us
to look at the question of arms transfer to Israel
and to report on that at the June session of the council next year.
provided we have the resources to do so. We will be doing that.
Um, I. I should indicate, too that it
it wasn't necessary to have that specific resolution.
Our our existing terms of reference were wide enough
to cover this A as well as broader issues.
As Navi has said it
about third party third state
obligations.
Um, but our our existing mandate could have covered arms transfers to Israel,
and it also covers arms transfers to Palestinian armed groups.
but we've been specifically asked by the council to
look at this question and report next June,
and we will be endeavouring to do so.
Thank you. Uh, let's take a question. Uh, now from the New York Times.
thank you.
You don't address in this report
the number of deaths of journalists and medical workers,
and I'm wondering if you have reached
or you've made any determination on those issues yet or when?
If you're going to
come
and deal with that in future reports,
a
second question is,
does the
scale of destruction and the number of civilian casualties
provide you with a sufficient legal basis
to make a determination
about crimes against humanity? Because when we're talking about the bombing,
we've heard from Israel
that it only targets military targets and people engage directly in,
uh, hostilities.
And we're trying to reconcile that statement
and Israel's
constant rep representation of the IDF as the most moral army in the world
with the counter claims that this is an indiscriminate bombardment creating
unnecessary civilian casualties. Thank you.
Yes. No, thank you for that question.
We, of course, deeply concerned about journalists,
medical staff.
At least 273 aid workers were killed,
including 197 UN staff. So we're gathering the statistics.
We did deal in some detail with the
killing of
Sheen
with forensic in our last report,
you know,
we have sitting with so much information the team is gathering this information.
But we stuck with this word limit that the UN
fixes yeah, of 10,000 words.
I assure you that we care about those issues. We we have the statistics and we
will definitely address them.
19 hospitals out of service, 17 hospitals partially functional.
We also concerned about universities
because at one time I spent a week in one of those universities at Al
HAQ
in Palestine, and now that's raised to the ground
universities raised to the ground.
So thank you for drawing our attention to that. We're not going to leave it. It's
how to fit this in into our
big themes,
but it definitely falls there. We will be doing that.
These statistics on the number of killed are crucial
for us and for the ICC
to determine the element of widespread and systematic
if you want to reach
a conclusion that crimes against humanity have been violated.
We said that
in Rwanda Tribunal, the very first decision.
Now the Rome statute actually says You have
to look whether there was a policy decision
taken as well
to establish that it was widespread and systematic
statistics then count
even though we said in the
ICTR decision that a single murder
could constitute genocide depending on the context
and the intention is the special
intent
fulfilled
on the evidence The special intention is to destroy,
in whole or in part a particular group, that's genocide, crimes against humanity?
It has to be widespread and systematic.
The information, the details we have on the numbers that are killed
humping
to me,
they appear to fit the definition of widespread and systematic that has been found
by international courts so far.
So we think our information gathering is of
crucial importance not only for us to determine
what crimes have been committed,
but the information will be relied on by the two international courts
who are who are receiving information from.
I may not have mentioned that we also sharing information
with the government of South Africa.
So it goes before the IJ
and we can do that.
The UN practise you may or may not know is you don't share any information.
Keep that very close book
here. Be very discreet about it.
But we have a mandate that orders us
to share the information with judicial institutions
with the institutions that are working on
on judicial investigations, prosecutions and so on.
two quick points, uh, on on the question of journalists.
Um, I, I should add to what Navi has said We we have a long list.
In fact, we have a very long list
of issues that we've not yet been able to cover.
And, um,
the killings of journalists is one of those.
And and a question associated with that,
um is whether there is evidence that
journalists are being deliberately targeted for killing.
we discussed that issue already, as Navi has said, in relation to the killing of Shin
Abu
Ale.
But, um,
that that is something that we may look at. But we haven't yet had a a
firm decision as to what the issues are that we'll be considering
in the October reports
Y you you mentioned and the the the the Israeli
Army is the most moral army in the world.
I
mean this This is something that
is said repeatedly by the the current prime minister of Israel, Netanyahu.
Um, O.
On one recent occasion, he walked it back a bit
and he said, One of the most moral armies in the world.
Now,
II, I don't have the expertise, and I don't have the authority
to to make assessments of morality.
Um, Netanyahu may,
uh, but but I don't.
So, uh, you know,
I don't know whether it's one of the most moral armies in the world or not,
but But what I do have expertise in and what I do
have an authority to do is make assessments of criminal conduct.
And we've done that in relation to
the recent events. And you can see that in the report.
And the only conclusion you can draw is that the Israeli
army is one of the most criminal armies in the world.
But I'll leave morality to Netanyahu to determine
Thank you, Commissioner. Um, let's go next to Associated Press. Uh, Jamie Kitten,
please go ahead.
Thank you, Todd. And thank you. Mr
Z. Madam
ple
um uh, Israeli authorities,
if you just kind of alludes to what you're just talking about,
um, Israeli authorities of course, been critical of your work. And, um,
you've already mentioned the lack of Cooper operation from their government.
And I think we can all recognise the difficulty
that you face as investigators and your staff.
What if any communication have you had with,
uh or do you expect with the Israeli government,
in light of this lack of commemoration And then
if I could just add in another question,
you mentioned that I CJ, um
maybe looking into whether, uh, the occupation is the root cause of this conflict,
Would you be able to say,
based on the information that you've unearthed for this report,
that at least for this specific part of the conflict Because there, of course,
have been a number of conflicts between Palestinians and
and and Israelis over the years?
This specific conflict
was initiated
by Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas.
The, um,
argument from Palestinians is that they've suffered so long they have to
react with your back against the wall. You have to react.
The commission's task is different. We've been mandated
to see
to see if there's any violations of international law,
so
you cannot commit an unlawful act.
Uh, and
and injure and kill civilians. All that
take hostages.
So we're very clear that those were violations and
they're committing crimes and they must be prosecuted.
Um, but that is the argument that most people
think is right and and, you know, especially in my country,
fighting against apartheid.
Yes. So
Nelson Mandela was classified as a terrorist, including by United States
until he was freed. And they had to quickly lift that terrorist tag
so he could join the Tik parade
on New York streets. And everybody embraced him overnight as a freedom fighter.
So one person's freedom fighter could be another terrorist.
But you know, we adhere to the law. You cannot kill civilians.
You have to protect them
with this
occupation.
Based on all the information we're gathering,
it's pretty stark to us a very clear intention
of forcible dislocation of people just to force them out.
And we read those instructions.
People from the north of Gaza move south,
and suddenly they get attacked in the South.
We read all those contrary instructions as pointing to
an
attitude of not caring
for their lives, destruction and dislocation.
that's what I would say there that this particular conflict, Yes,
has brought out sharply
the issue of occupation itself as the root cause.
Chris,
I'd I'd like to focus on your phrase specific act.
international criminal law
is based upon accountability for specific acts.
So each war crime
is a specific act. Each crime against humanity
has to be widespread or systematic,
but it is made up of specific acts,
and so criminal responsibility is based on specific acts. But
trying to say that starting and finishing
is based on a specific act is an impossible task.
Um, the Secretary general famously said last October that that
what had occurred on the seventh of October did not occur in a vacuum.
And that's something that in our report, we have tried to understand.
Uh, th this is a war that's been going on for almost a century.
Uh, there has never been a time of complete peace
during that century.
There has only been variations in the level of violence.
What we have seen from the seventh of October
is an increase in the level of violence,
a more intensive period of hostilities.
And we have to understand that context
to understand the specific acts that have occurred.
But
understanding is not justification.
Understanding doesn't mean that the commission of a
war crime or the commission of a crime
against humanity
is under any circumstances justifiable.
But we've got to understand why this has occurred.
If we are interested in stopping it from happening again,
and that that that to me is the key point here.
This has happened time and time and time again,
and this is the worst ever.
This is the highest death toll ever in
this protracted period of warfare.
And
there must be
accountability for every specific act of criminality.
But if we're going to stop it in the future,
we also have to address the question of the context in which it has occurred.
John.
Sorry, Jimmy. I, uh,
didn't answer your question about Yeah.
How many times we've communicated with Israel? Yes, many, many times.
They don't respond,
so I can't say they decline to see us. No, they simply do not respond.
But they've made many statements
saying they will not co operate with this commission
that we biassed and so on.
But we've addressed these communications in the most respectful way,
the most recent being our
communication to them to comply with the order, the specific order issued by the ICJ
to allow
the
COI
access into Israel.
And I
thought that that would be taken seriously. This is an order of the court.
In fact, we're busy
thinking now what next?
When there's an order of the
that's not being complied with,
who do we take it to? So no answer to our most recent communication?
And can I finish though with a note of hope?
Uh, today This morning
we saw the first occasion on which
the government of Israel engaged with this commission in the Human Rights Council,
the first occasion where Israel has been represented in the council
at a time of the
commission's reporting
and responded to the commission's report.
And for me,
that indicates a very significant
development
that is still to be tested
but a development
in in hoping that the government of Israel will engage with us.
The fact that the person who represented the state of Israel
was the mother of a hostage,
uh, is also extremely important,
you know, that's that was the first time we've had an opportunity
to talk and hear directly face to face
from one of the family members of hostages.
And that's what we wanted. We wanted it to.
And and we hope desperately
that we can have further contact with Ms Gonon
and members of her family and hostages who have been released. Uh, W,
we have asked repeatedly for that. We have called for it in public statements.
The only thing standing between that
occurring,
uh, and us being able to gather the evidence
is the obstruction coming from the state of Israel.
So I hope today we have seen a positive development
and that this is a sign of a willingness AAA greater
level of willingness on the part of the state of Israel
to engage with our investigations.
Um, thank you. We I think we had another question from, uh, Reuters.
If I'm allowed to follow up. Yes, please. Um,
given how resource intensive your work is,
I imagine it is given the length of the reports and
and the number of footnotes and geoloc locations and so on.
Um, I'm just wondering,
have you found yourself, um, coming up against any obstacles with funding,
given the situation right now with the UN? And
are you If not, are you concerned about that going forward?
Thank you.
You know, I should let
Chris answer that. See where he could wrench out the whole part of his answer.
So we have now had our mandates extended. Two important additions.
One is investigate the settler violence.
Identify the perpetrators with a view to prosecution,
and the other is the transfer
of arms
military. You know that second matter is already before the
International Court of Justice brought by South Africa and Venezuela.
Yes, against Germany. So those two matters are before them.
These are expensive mandates, and we are absolutely struggling for funds.
Anybody hearing the small number of staff we are. And the extensive reports
we produced would be really amazed.
And I personally am concerned about how far we pushing colleagues in the office,
for instance, watching the video material,
just watching. Some of it affected me deeply.
So how much worse for them as they do this day?
In and out, we do need the support of member states
and the media
to ensure that
a
serious commission such as this is properly funded. Sometimes a
commission can be set up for failure. If it's not properly
funded.
You know,
I've been asked a similar question like this in my own country in South Africa.
I assure you people were very surprised
when they heard that the commissioners don't get paid. We volunteer to do this
because in South Africa it's a rather attractive,
well paid job to be a commissioner.
Because
I just agree.
OK, thank you. Um, do we have any more questions from the room?
OK, Nick, please go ahead. I just wonder if you could
elaborate a little bit on what is the information
that you shared with the government of South Africa?
What is the scope and detail of that?
And also in the findings of your summary report, you say
you've identified
senior figures in Hamas and in the Israeli military and government
who you consider responsible for violations.
I wonder if that is information that you
are also sharing with other judicial bodies.
Thank you.
So firstly, um,
we only shared with South Africa material concerning Gaza because that's
the essence of their application.
We
we are served shared as much as we could. But
with all the protection issues in place, we have to protect witnesses,
identities, So
although we are in a position to
share names
not only with South Africa but if the ICC requests that and they follow all the
measures we put in place to protect identity of witnesses,
we could do that. But this far
we haven't. I look at our legal adviser who knows more about this. We have not shared
names yet. Yes. So she agrees with me. We haven't,
but it may well come to that.
You know,
there are all kinds of reasons why you don't name people until they indict it.
It happens in every national
judicial system as well.
You have to. They have rights,
the right presumption of innocence. We have to guard against all that. But we could
when the time comes and we're ready to do
so share names with the precautions in place,
cause,
uh, I I'd just add AAA brief note relating to the
the different nature of the processes in the IC C and the I CJ.
I mean,
the International Criminal Court deals
with individual criminal accountability,
and
the prosecutor is the investigator has an investigative wing.
The material we provide to the IC C is supplementary to their own investigations.
Uh, and most of the me.
Well, I think Virt at this stage,
all the material we have provided is open source material.
We have
absolutely fantastic expertise in
digital forensic analysis.
Um and, um, it seems the IC C doesn't
And so it's that kind of material,
the these thousands of pieces of evidence that navi referred to.
And that's essentially what we're sharing as well with South
Africa under a re a request from from South Africa.
It's not identifying material about individuals.
Um, the International Court of Justice
is not concerned with individual criminal accountability.
It deals with state responsibility in in this case, under the Genocide Convention,
it does not have its own independent investigative wing.
It relies on the parties to a case to produce evidence
in a
quasi
adversarial style.
Um, if if the government of Israel as the defendant asked us for this information,
we would provide it.
It's not identifying information, it doesn't place people at risk.
But the authority for us, under our mandate from the Human Rights Council,
is to facilitate
mechanisms of international accountability
and national accountability, too under universal jurisdiction
that are undertaken by properly constituted courts and tribunals.
so if the courts and tribunals are properly constituted,
independent operate in accordance with the rule of law.
All that kind of stuff.
We have authority to share information,
but the information that we share is open source information,
which largely they are incapable of collecting and analysing themselves.
And so it's a very important supplement.
Thank you, Commissioner. Um, do we have any more questions from OK?
One and the back, please? Go ahead.
Yes, thank you. Just a quick clarification.
Um, I just wanted to to ask you if you have already asked,
um or if you will ask the Israeli authorities to to meet
with families of hostages or former hostages that are now free.
I. I didn't I'm not sure if I will understood if you have already asked or not.
Thank you.
That responds to my point. So I'll just indicate the answer is is yes.
We have asked repeatedly to be able to visit Israel.
Um, we have asked for
Cooper operation from the Israeli authorities for them
to provide any evidence that they have.
They could provide witness statements to us as well.
We want
any form of assistance that we can get.
The most important is the ability to go there
and to meet witnesses and to interview them.
But to give you one example of the opposite occurring.
We reached out
to medical staff who had been involved in dealing with
both the injured people and bodies after seven of October
and wanted to be able to speak with them to hear from them what they
what they did and what they saw.
And the Israeli government issued a directive
that they were not to speak with us or have any contact with us.
So, so far from having Co-operation,
what we have encountered is
obstruction.
OK, thank you.
Um, if there are no more questions from the room, we don't I don't see any online.
Uh, that brings this press conference to a close.
Thank you all for joining us and have a good day.