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COI Ukraine presser
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Press Conferences | OHCHR
UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine - Presser
Erik Møse, Chairperson of Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine
On behalf of the Commission of Inquiry for Ukraine, composed of Erik Møse (chair), Jasminka Džumhur and Pablo de Greiff, I want to welcome you to this press conference at the end of the Commission’s first visit to the country.
The Human Rights Council set up the Commission to investigate alleged violations and abuses of human rights and violations of international humanitarian law, and related crimes in the context of the Russian aggression against Ukraine, with a view to ensuring accountability. On 12 May 2022, the Human Rights Council also requested the Commission to address events that took place in late February and March in four specific regions of Ukraine. Consequently, the Commission has, during this ten-day long visit in Ukraine given priority to Kyiv city, Bucha, Irpin, Kharkiv and Sumy.
In Kyiv, we met with representatives of the Ukrainian parliament, of several ministries, and with the Prosecutor General, whom we had also met previously. The purpose of these encounters was to exchange information of relevance to the Commission’s mandate and to facilitate future investigations. We also met several Ukrainian NGOs that provided valuable inputs to our work.
During the visits to Bucha, Irpin, Kharkiv and Sumy, the Commission met with local authorities as well as civil society organizations, both of which provided significant assistance. Furthermore, the Commission received accounts from individuals who shared their painful stories.
Although far from fully staffed, the Commission’s first visit was very productive. At this stage we are not in a position to make any factual findings or pronounce ourselves on issues of the legal determination of events. However, subject to further confirmation, the information received and the visited sites of destruction may support claims that serious violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law, perhaps reaching war crimes and crimes against humanity, have been committed in the areas.
In Bucha and Irpin, the Commission received information about arbitrary killing of civilians, destruction and looting of property, as well as attacks on civilian infrastructure, including schools. In Kharkiv and Sumy region, the Commission observed the destruction of large urban areas, allegedly as a consequence of aerial bombings, shelling, or missile strikes against civilian targets.
Jasminka Džumhur, Member of Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine
The Commission also had the opportunity to listen to internally displaced persons, including those coming from the East of Ukraine, who referred to displacement of people. Testimonies also included stories of destruction of civilian property; looting; the confinement, mistreatment, and disappearance of civilians, as well as reports about rapes and other forms of sexual abuse. The Commission will examine all these allegations further.
The Commission is concerned with the impact of the war on children. It considers it necessary to investigate further reports about the alleged transfer of children placed in institutions in the temporarily occupied territories to the Russian Federation as well as information about expedited citizenship and adoption processes for some of these children. In Ukraine, many displaced children have been separated from families. The physical destruction of schools and their use for the accommodation of IDPs raises challenges concerning the children’s access to education.
The Commission has previously stated that it would adopt a victim-centered perspective on its work, and that it would be faithful to its mandate, which asks it to make proposals regarding accountability. Criminal accountability is important, but so are other forms of accountability, including those that enhance the possibility that victims will be able to reconstruct their lives.
The Government of Ukraine is making efforts to meet the diverse needs of victims. While there are areas where greater institutional coordination is probably desirable, doing so while the conflict is ongoing poses particular challenges.
Pablo de Greiff, Member of Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine
The first visit of the Commission will be followed by visits to other parts of Ukraine before the Commission’s oral update to the Human Rights Council in September this year.
We will continue with the process of collecting evidence that may serve accountability purposes; whenever possible identifying individuals or entities, and will pay special attention to violations of a sexual nature, of the rights of children, the elderly, and other vulnerable populations.
The Commission will carry out its work independently, neutrally, and objectively, examining violations and abuses regardless of the identity of the perpetrator. We hope that all parties to the conflict will assist the Commission in its work.
Finally, we would like to express our gratitude to the Government of Ukraine for facilitating our mission, to Ukrainian civil society organisations, victims and witnesses, and to the various United Nations agencies for their kind collaboration. The Commission also wants to thank the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and the United Nations Resident Coordinator in Ukraine for their indispensable collaboration to the visit.
We will be happy to take some questions now.
Teleprompter
On behalf of the Commission of Inquiry for Ukraine, composed of Eric Mersich here, Jasmine Katzumvush and Pablo Degrez, I want to welcome you to this press conference.
At the end of the Commission's first visit to the country, the Human Rights Council set up the Commission to investigate LED violation and abuses of human Rights and violations of international humanitarian law and related crimes in the context of the Russian aggression against Ukraine.
With a view to ensuring accountability.
On 12th May 2022, the Human Rights Council also requested the permission to address events that took place in late February and March in four specific regions of Ukraine.
Consequently, the Commission has, during this 10 day long visit in Ukraine, given priority to Tea City, Yorkshire, Irbin, Kharkiv and soon in Kiev.
We met with representatives of the Ukrainian Parliament, of several ministries and with the Prosecutor General, whom we have also met previously.
The purpose of these encounters was to exchange information of relevance to the Commission's mandate and to facilitate future investigations.
We also met several Ukrainian NGOs that provided valuable inputs to our work.
During the visits to Puja Irfim Kharkhib and Sumi, the Commission met with local authorities as well as civil society organisations, both of which provided significant assistance.
Furthermore, the Commission received accounts from individuals that shared their painful stories.
Although far from fully staffed, the Commission's first visit was very productive.
At this stage, we are not in a position to make any factual findings or pronounce ourselves on issues of the legal determination of events.
However, subject to further confirmation, the information received and the visited sites of destruction may support claims that serious violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law, perhaps reaching war crimes and crimes against humanity, have been committed in the areas.
In Butcher and Irbin, the Commission received information about arbitrary killings of civilians, destruction and looting of property, as well as attacks on civilian infrastructure, including schools.
In Kharkiv and Suomi region, the Commission observed the destruction of large urban areas, allegedly as a consequence of aerial bombings, shellings or missile stripes against civilian targets.
Journalists, ladies and gentlemen, the Commission also had the opportunity to listen to internal desperate persons, including those coming from the east of Ukraine, who refer to displacement of people.
Testimonies also include the stories of destruction of civilian property, looting, the complement of mistreatment and disappearance of civilians, as well as reports about rapes and other form of sexual *****.
The Commission will exam all those allegations further.
The Commission is concerned with the impact of the war on children.
It considers it necessary to investigate further reports about the alleged transfer of children placed in institutions in temporarily occupied territories to the Russian Federation, as well as information about expedite citizenship and adoption processes for some of these children.
In Ukraine, many displaced children have been separated from families.
The physical destruction of schools and they use for the accommodation of ID PS raises challenges concerning the children access to education.
The Commission has previously stated that it would adopt A victim centred perspective on its work and that it would be faithful to its mandate, which asks it to make proposals regarding accountability.
Criminal accountability is important, but so far other forms of accountability, including those that enhance the possibility that victims will be able to reconstruct their lives.
The Government of Ukraine is making efforts to meet the diverse needs of victims.
While there are areas there are greater institutional coordination is probably desirable, doing so while the conflict is ongoing possess particular challenges.
Thank you very much for your interest.
The first visit of the Commission will be followed by visits to other parts of Ukraine before the commissions or adapted to the Human Rights Council in September of this year.
We will continue with the process of collecting evidence that may serve accountability purposes, whenever possible identifying individuals or entities, and will will pay special attention to violations of our sexual nature of the rights of children, the elderly and other vulnerable populations.
The Commission will carry out its work independently, neutrally and objectively examining violations and abuses regardless of the identity of the perpetrator.
We hope that all parties to the conflict will assist the Commission in its work.
Finally, we would like to express our gratitude to the Government of Ukraine for facilitating our mission to Ukrainian civil society organisations, victims and witnesses, and to the various UN agencies for their kind collaboration.
The Commission also wants to thank the Office of the **** Commissioner for Human Rights and the United Nations Resident Coordinator in Ukraine for their indispensable collaboration in this visit.
Thank you very much.
We will now be ready to take some questions and we ask you, as explained in the beginning, kindly to address Mr Manbier about this.
Thank you, journalist.
I will give the microphone to you just a second before we start.
We need to have English on Zoom.
So if you ask questions in another language, it would be only in English on Zoom.
So please process it that way and also the statement will be sent to journalist after this press conference.
So please we'll take the first questions, identify yourself and your media.
Thank you.
Michael Voss from CGTN Russia has consistently denied that it's targeting civilians and has called this talk of killing of civilians and mass and mass graves fake news.
What, what is your reply to that in Note that that has been the position.
It is our intention to hear all parties to the conflict.
Already early when we were set up, we contacted the Russian delegation in Geneva and we have stated publicly that we are pursuing our effort.
The first attempt was not successful, that we are pursuing our efforts and looking into this matter more deeply.
Hello, Catherine Norriston from France 24.
You say you hope for the cooperation of all parties.
Have you had contact with the Russian authorities about any any cooperation with them?
And secondly.
What are your next?
Steps.
Do you have plans for another visit?
Where do you take this from here?
So far we have not been in contact with others than the regional authorities or with the reasonable delegation in Geneva that has been out of contact so far.
But as this has not proved successful, it seems that there is a need to take further steps.
And then with respect to other rational authorities, one about the future, I should also say that of course, this is when it comes to this particular visit.
We have just finished here.
A next step will of course, be to have more visits into this country.
The territory will be decided in view of the development.
If there are some questions from Ukrainian mass media, I would like let's give a voice to Ukrainian Maria Vasilieva Studio 1 + 1 Maria.
Probably that came from the translation, but just a second.
In your statement you mentioned that there are violations sort of like incorrect parking, but not mass murders, burying women, killing elderly people, mass destruction and ****** and killing children.
What else Russia should do that we would speak about the crime, but not a violation of rules like incorrect parking.
The The the position of the Commission at this point is of course not.
We are not in a position to reach a legal determination of facts at this point, but of course that doesn't mean that we are questioning necessarily what we have seen on the ground.
One thing is to witness massive destruction, for example, to receive stories about deliberate killings, and we have experienced both, and both of them are of course shocking, but quite another is to reach a decision about responsibility and the legal characterization of those facts.
We are working very, very hard to try to be in a position to achieve the latter.
And more things to go back to the earlier question, to be able to make a contribution to the elimination of claims about fake news, but this is the work of the Commission and this is a process.
Hello, this is Julia Hill from ZDF German Television.
Can you give us some more?
Details on the sexual violence what?
What are the results on that?
Thank you for your question.
To be honest, during of our visit we received several testimonies on few cases which happened.
But pure investigation as we said, will be taken to provide proper evidences.
As colleagues from Ukrainian media asked about process, you must understand the Is it OK?
Sorry, sort of bliss warm.
The 10 days Our visit.
Preliminary visit to collect first evidences and to establish communication with all actors involved in some way and engaged in conflict is not sufficient and we are definitely will continue our investigation in next months and to to collect evidences to preserve them and to analyse those to come out with conclusion.
If you want to eliminate any doubt on that what happened and to be precisely clear on that, we need to do our job properly, otherwise our job will be unsuccessful.
Please.
The journal is the last question from the press centre.
OK, Andrea Lucetta from righty Juno I have two questions.
First, what do we know about the abuses against children?
And secondly, I imagine it is too early to state if this was part of a tactic employed on the ground or if it was made by rogue units.
Testimonies which we received during of our visit and also other evidence is saying that there is a significant number of children disappeared on temporary occupied territories, particularly children from institutions.
But having in mind that it's not clear evidences of missing persons globally on territory of Ukraine and that there is no possibility in this stage to have approached or temporarily occupied territories, it is very difficult to confirm those evidences.
And definitely there is no doubt of that, that information related to missing persons from institutions are there, but also information on that where are those children indicate some information indicates that they are well transferred on territory or temporary occupied territories or on Russian Federation and they are given a citizenship.
Therefore, for us is extremely important to establish communication with Russian Federation authorities.
And definitely it is very important for all sides involved in conflict if we want to build together with truth and justice.
And I'm sure that we will have successful education in future with the Russian Federation side.
Thank you very much.
And now we go to the section of questions from Zoom from Geneva journalists.
So please.
Yes, I did.
The floor to Mr Jan.
Dirk Heberman, please.
Yes.
Good morning.
Can you hear me?
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Jander Kaberman, my name.
I write for several German language media based in Geneva.
At the United Nations.
There are several investigations going on, at least two UN investigations, the ICC and several investigations on behalf of national authorities.
I was wondering, isn't there the danger that you might duplicate your work?
And secondly, isn't there the danger that Russia take will take advantage of reports and findings which are not in, which are not compatible, which are different?
Isn't there a danger?
Thanks.
This was a very pertinent questions in the sense that given the fact that there are so many international instances as institutions as well as regional institutions and national institutions, prosecutors in several countries, there is indeed a risk of overlapping and not only that but also a risk of re traumatisation of witnesses if they are heard by too many investigators.
So this has really been a problem we have been concerned about since the beginning and I know that that concern is widespread along those who participate in these processes.
We have tried to establish contact, in particular with ICC, in order to avoid overlapping and have some kind of modalities to contact in order to find some division of work or at least some information exchanged about what is happening in order to reduce that risk.
What we are talking about, how, whether there will be different findings remain to be seen by all these.
I note that the mandate of all these institutions are there to some extent quite different, and that reduces to some extent the risk that there will be large discrepancies.
Our mandate, for instance, is very wide.
It is covers many fields of law, not only criminal responsibility like the ICC, but also human rights and other fields mentioned in the resolution and this in a way gives an opportunity to fine tune each institution's best way to make a contribution according to its strength to clarify what happened.
Now I give the floor to Mr Stefan Bussard from Luton.
Janette.
Yes, good morning, everybody.
Thank you for this briefing.
Stefan Bisa from Luton newspaper in Geneva.
I have a question about the you were talking about the transfer of children.
Could you give more details and maybe some figures about the this transfer of children to institutions on Russian soil?
Thank you very much.
As we heard during conversation with the different actors from institutional side, NGOs and also our interview of victims, there is a real big number of children accommodated generally in institutions on territory of Ukraine.
The also there are institutions registered on temporary occupied territories with which officials don't have a more proper communication.
And now there is open question where are children from those institutions?
If we will use number of children, I think it will not be appropriate where away, because for us it's most important to get proper information on that.
What happened with those children's particularly I would like to remark that those children are accommodated, very accommodated institutions.
Also they had parents and they, their parents are still on territory of Ukraine.
And definitely it is one of our questions which is very **** on list of priorities.
And if we are comparing exactly with other mechanisms which are dealing with crown here on territory and war issues, on territory of Ukraine, it is particular value of our mandate that we are focusing on, on victims.
Now the floor is to Mrs Cristiano Ulrich from DPA.
Thank you very much for taking my question.
This is to the Chair.
You mentioned that evidence shows that war crimes and crimes against humanity might have been committed.
Could you be a bit more specific?
What's evidence are you talking about?
What have you found that leads you to this observation?
Thank you.
Well, the there these two notions which we refer to the legal notions of course covers a lot of different events and acts and what we can say this and I would like to stress again that this is the first visit.
So we only have a fragment of all the evidence we need, but based on what we said and what I said in my introductory statement, for example, with respect to bookshop, there is evidence which may lead to the final conclusion later on that these two sets of rule are violated.
Please understand that this is not any kind of hesitation or whatever.
This is simply that we have to go step by step and that we have to have as much information as possible over some time.
And our task is to give a first oral update in September before the Human Rights Committee and Human Rights Commission, and our final report is due in March.
So you will understand that it is difficult for us at this early stage to go into details about assessment of evidence or indicate the interpretation of legal concepts, including thresholds.
Since there there are no further questions on Zoom, is there anyone in the room want to ask a question?
Please, dear journalist, raise your hands.
OK.
There is a gentleman on the right side.
Thank you for this opportunity to ask a question.
I am the speaker of Ukrainian community, defending its right to have the full representation of our nation among other nations of the Ukraine.
So my question in this multifaceted undeclared war, the main essence of this war is against ethnic Ukrainian as community.
Moscow is not saying that it's going to destroy the Armenians in Ukraine or Jews in Ukraine or Buryats in Ukraine.
This is a war or against Ukrainian, so is there this understanding in the international organisations or is there some effort to pretend that this is against humans in general?
We are concerned, in accordance with the the mandate that we received from the Human Rights Council to investigate all violations of international human rights law, international humanitarian law and the other crimes that may have been committed in the course of the Russian Federation's aggression to Ukraine.
That is the mandate.
That mandate accommodates many, many different types of violations and of crimes, including violations that target vulnerable populations, but also violations that are of a more systemic nature and that obey patterns in which we are very interested in gaining clarity about.
So how to characterise the nature and the specific target of the violations that have taken place is not something that we are ready to do at this point, but that the framework within which we are operating will allow us to do when we complete our work.
And we will be in a much better position to determine which attacks have targeted particular groups, which attacks have targeted the general populations, which have targeted institutions, etcetera.
We are not limited by our mandate.
In fact, we have an extraordinarily broad legal mandate given to us by the Human Rights Council, and that is an advantage, and the Commission is determined to try to make the best use of the breadth of its mandate for the sake of clarifying the events that took place in Ukraine.
We can take one more question Saskatchewan Ukrainian truce Ukraine.
I realise it is very early to speak about anything concerning Ukrainian conflict, but to maybe get have a better understanding what we can expect in a year or two when your results are ready.
We have previous conflicts, for example, Syria was a believe was investigated by UNA lot.
Can you share what were the practical effect or practical results of all the UN investigations concerning human rights prevention in Syria?
Thank you.
Which is actually outside our mandate.
And we are here to deal with our experiences after the visit in Ukraine following the two resolutions by the Human Rights Council.
And we will of course, limit ourselves to that topic.
People may of course many views on the question you raised, but our task is not to to express a view on that.
Thank you.
May I add one general comment?
I think that the function of this procedures, and in particular of ours, is to make contributions to accountability and in our particular case, understood broadly.
What kind of shape that accountability takes in each particular case and particularly in what time frame, of course, is not solely dependent on the work of the Commissions.
But the underlying intention is the conviction that the, for example, collection accumulation and the standard setting with respect to determinations of violations will be important for individuals, for communities, for the country and in fact for the international community.
And all commissions seek to satisfy those aims.
OK, there is no more question on Zoom.
OK, one last question in the room and that will be the last one.
Thank you.
Good afternoon.
I'm Mikhail Golazianka, writer, general interpreter.
So far we've heard about all the war crimes and rumours that you have, you said were allegedly committed by the Russian soldiers.
But could you please tell us about some of the crimes that have inexorable ground and stone proofs that you have no doubt about?
They were committed by the Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
Thank you.
The question for us at this point has nothing to do with doubt about any of the reports that we have received, the the testimony that we have heard or the places that we have visited.
Doubt is not part of the issue.
The issue is whether we have sufficient evidence that counts as such strongly for legal purposes and for the purposes of a report that is credible and factually impeccable, which is what we want to determine, and therefore that has to wait for the process of the accumulation of evidence that we are presently engaged in.
But I would like to stress this fact because you mentioned whether commissions were treating violations as if they were akin to parking violations, and of course, we are not.
What we have witnessed is something that everyone has to take very, very seriously and for which subjective reactions, doubt or certainty, are not the determining factor.
The determining factor is whether we have sufficient evidence to establish credibly and indubitably the fact that they they took place and that they took place in a particular fashion.
But let me reassure you that for none of us, anything that we have seen is remotely similar to our parking violation.
This is of course, an entirely different category of criminality that we are talking about.
Sorry.
Actually there is another question from Zoom.
So Christiana, OK, we'll take perhaps later on the last on the floor.
Thank you very much.
Are you investigating crimes that might have been committed by Ukrainian soldiers too?
And can you give us a bit of a flavour of what you have found so far?
Thank you.
We simply have to say now that we are now in the process of creating our investigation strategy.
We just received some more investigators so that we can start going even more in depth in addition to what we've done so far and in addition to the result achieved during this visit.
So I will say that we are considering all possibilities in order to get a complete picture as possible.
But to say anything more about exactly what we will choose and how to proceed with those alternatives is still a bit premature.
Again, we are now in June, it's September when we are expected to give our oral update and then it carries out to it continues to March 2053.
As I mentioned a couple of times.
Thank you.
If I may, I just want to add in every statement that we have made, starting with the Chair's participation in the area formula debate at the Security Council, but also in today's statement, we have argued very clearly that the Commission will investigate violations regardless of the identity of the alleged perpetrator.
This is an independent, neutral objective Commission and we intend to keep faithful to that mandate that we received.
And you will know this was not mentioned in the earlier statement.
It was mentioned on the 12th of May in the Human Rights Council and it is mentioned in the statement that will be distributed today, which was given.
Really, thank you.
Hi Max Hunter, Reuters Ukraine says that Russia is deliberately targeting Ukraine's agricultural sector, especially kind of large scale agricultural infrastructure that allows Ukraine to to export vast amounts of food.
I noticed that in your remarks so far, you have not specifically mentioned focusing on whether Russia has been deliberately targeting Ukraine's agricultural infrastructure, in particular things like grain storage and things that allow for the export of grain to the world.
Is that an area that you'll be focusing on in your investigation?
And please expand on that if you are focusing on it.
It is a very difficult to make statement for press conference and to mention everything.
What we have evidently to our first mission, we mentioned under scope of economical, social and cultural rights.
Definitely this is part of our interest because economical rights are very broad, including infrastructure objects, not only related to agriculture and the way of influence war on agriculture system.
But but also we mentioned the distortion of infrastructure objects related to gas, related to electricity, water, and we received many testimonies of ID PS other victims on distortion, those infrastructure objects.
Definitely there is no doubt that we will focus on that because if we are speaking on human rights, it is very, very broad scope of issues including that.
And also thank you journalists, to remind us again on this, because we also received from other special rapporteurs example on business and to pay attention on the on, on, on on those rights.
Thank you so much.
You wanted to take one more question.
I think we would just probably say on behalf of the commissioners that we appreciate that for many of you who came today and we look forward to next time we meet on the press conference after visiting Ukraine.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
So if this is the end of the press conference, you as mentioned before, you will receive the giant state, the introductory state in France and I would understand there will be also webcast on the UN.
Thank you very much.