HRC Press Conference 19 June 2023: Human Rights in Afghanistan

Thank you very much for your patience.

We are here today to for the the press conference on the joint report on the human rights situation in Afghanistan.

We have with us the Special Rapporteur in Afghanistan, Mr Richard Bennett, and the chair of the Working Group on Discrimination against Women and Girls, Miss Dorothy Estrada Tank.

They'll be here to answer your questions, but first they'll give us a few opening remarks.

Thank you.

In fact, I also apologise for keeping you waiting.

We we were in a side event and it was a bit hard to find this room.

I think many of you have been in the chamber this morning and have heard both our presentations, three of us here, and the interventions by I think it was 5958 or 59 Member States and 10 NGOs.

Other civil society organisations wish to speak, but there was a limit placed on it.

So I think you are already aware of the messages that we have.

And in addition to that, we have issued a press release today, a joint press release, which is based on our report.

So I don't want to repeat myself, and I think since we only have half an hour, it's probably better to go straight into the questions and answers.

But of course, Dorothy may have some opening remarks.

Thank you so much Richard and, and thank you for organising and for being here.

And again, apologies as well for the delay.

And I would just want to highlight that keeping in the spirit and the main focus of this report, we would request that apart from hearing our views, which we of course happily share, that as part of a communication strategy, if you wish to address the issue of human rights of women and girls in Afghanistan, we place Afghan women at the centre.

This is our call in the report, and we do so here as well in terms of emphasising and creating articulating spaces for their voices to also be brought to the centre of any discussion in Afghanistan.

And again, as was mentioned by Richard, we are glad to share the space with you and looking forward to any question and comments that you may have.

Thank you very much.

We have a special guest with us as well.

It's a human rights defender from Afghanistan.

So if you have any questions for her and you want to hear her stories, please don't hesitate to ask her.

So we'll start with questions from the room as usual, and then we'll move to those online.

Thank you, Gabriel to Trofaber, Reuters news agency.

A question for Special Rapporteur Bennett.

In the report published in March, you mentioned that the systematic discrimination might amount to a crime against humanity.

This is something you reiterated today at the Council.

Given that your report covered July to December of last year and now, you know, six months later, I'm just wondering if you could pinpoint the elements that have changed?

From your last report.

And if it's worsened then how and and if it's?

Something have improved.

How have they improved?

Since your last.

Report, although you said at the at the in your opening statement at the Council today that the predicament is has worsened, but just to make a distinction with the last report.

Thank you.

Thank you, Gabriel.

I think the main distinction with the last report was that in the the Council session last October, we were mandated to produce the joint report that we have presented today, specifically on women and girls.

And so we have not really covered the broader human rights situation in Afghanistan in this report, though we have tried to give it some context, including some historical context.

And as as far as women and girls go, in fact, it was in my first report, which was tabled last year in September, where I first went to issues of international crimes and crimes against humanity.

And in that case I spoke about the crimes that may be being committed against the Hazara Shia population and other minority groups.

So I think the distinction this time is the focus on gender issues on on women and girls and the fact that we have more specifically outline issues of gender persecution in the report.

And we have pointed to the need for more exploration of gender apartheid, which is not currently an international crime but could become so.

And we have noted that it appears if one applies the definition of apartheid, which at the moment is, is for race to the situation in Afghanistan and use sex instead of race, then they seem to be strong indications pointing towards that.

So I hope that's answered your question.

Thank you.

I think we have two more questions in the room.

Yes, good afternoon.

My name is Paula Dupaulibias, I'm with Geneva Solutions.

I given the severity of the situation in Afghanistan right now and the humanitarian situation that you have also mentioned and, and also the, the fact that the defenders who were on the, on the podium this morning had said that the, the, the international community may be somewhat complicit in, in what's what's happening in the country.

I'm just wondering, I'd like to get your perspective on how you see sort of this, you know, an undoing or, or how do you see a way out of the situation?

Well, maybe I'll just have a word or two and and then also share the podium with my colleague Dorothy, but also with the Afghan human women human rights defender who is is here in, in terms of a way out of the situation.

As you know, we consider that legal means with human rights at the core.

What are what is our mandate?

That is what the the powers of the Human Rights Council are and appointing us as independent experts reporting to the Human Rights Council.

I don't think that those legal means have been fully explored in any way yet.

We mentioned already I think the International Criminal Court, we've also referenced the International Court of Justice and universal jurisdiction.

So that that's one thing in terms of the issue of complicity, which was mentioned I think on the podium and from the floor today more with more by the Afghan women who spoke.

I do think that is a very valid point to raise.

Where allegate, where there are allegations of crimes against humanity, the question of cooperation and of normalisation or move it moves towards legitimisation of the de facto authorities does raise those issues.

But I'll I'll pass the floor to my colleagues.

Thank you very much for this question.

The worsening the situation.

There are a lot of factors that have contributed towards this.

One of the major factors is the lack of access to justice and that the violations of the human rights principles are increasing and they're worsening the situation for so many areas in Afghanistan.

We need to create political will to ensure improvement for the social conditions of the people and help them access to justice.

Unfortunately, there are things that if we engage the people to share with us about the violations and then we contribute from our end as much as possible, we can help the situation improve.

But in the meantime, we need to create political will to ensure the safety and security of the activist human right defenders and other citizen that are raising their voices and ensuring to raise the issues that are in violation of the human rights principles.

So these are absolutely the interventions that we need to create political will for them.

Yeah.

Maybe could I add to that, if possible, before moving to the next question?

I also think that that in this same line, part of what the human rights special procedures can contribute to this is not only making visible and documenting this worsening of the situation and the human rights violations, but that we ordinarily as part of our everyday work, engage with civil society.

So this dimension of bringing in the voices in this concrete situation of women and girls, is, is is is not alien to what we already do.

So it's not only a technical investigation process, documentation, collection of evidence, it's really bringing into the design methodology and outcome the the voices of women and girls.

Which is why I think it's it's so relevant that this specific instruction by the Human Rights Council was to focus on the human rights of women and girls.

Not only because we have to do that always because it's the half of humanity.

So any consideration on human rights anywhere has to bring half of humanity to the table.

But also because specifically in the case of Afghanistan, we know that this is a central tenet of the Taliban's policy right, how to exclude women and girls from public life.

So then it is doubly necessary to bring their voices not only to the table, but back to the table, and to really privilege that listening to them and and making them part of any solution that is proposed in relation to Afghanistan.

Just one thing that I want to add to clarify here is that the at the at the West or out of Afghanistan, there is perception exists that the woman inside the country or the people, they are no longer working or resisting.

There are women that are working both in the NGOs and they are activists.

They are working to contribute towards improving the situation.

This working doesn't mean that we have to protest on the street because it's not safe.

And this, this means that we are, we are encouraging the dialogue with Taliban, continuous dialogue with Taliban, peaceful.

We are looking for peaceful solutions, peaceful for, for the country and peaceful for the citizen who are living inside the country, which is very much important.

And we are, we are also contributing towards these peaceful solutions.

And we don't want any intervention that can, that can worsen the situation, that will the situation will go beyond the control of the of the humanitarian actors as well.

We absolutely want interventions for sure.

But those interventions should be absolutely consultative with the people of Afghanistan, particularly those who are living inside the country, because ultimately they are the people who are bearing the consequences of the decisions concerning their future.

And we are looking for peaceful solutions and peaceful engagement.

Thank you.

Hello, Mr Reporter and I would like to ask you, my name is Idris Julia, I'm from Afghanistan International TV.

And the question is, do you think Taliban will ready to engage with the international community?

Will they take your report seriously and what do you say to Afghan gills that are in Afghanistan?

Should they be hopeful that your work will help them?

Thank you.

Will the Taliban take the report seriously?

Probably not.

This is the the reality.

Still, there is always an element not only of hope, but of possibility.

Human action is to a certain extent unpredictable.

We see so in the fact that nobody knew or probably few people knew or anticipated that what happened in August 2021 would actually happen or in that way or in such a rapid occurrence.

So there is always an element of unpredictability in human behaviour and reaction.

And, and of course several disciplines have studied this.

I think the challenge now is how to make the the content of the report and any of these proposals, as Medina was saying, that are done in consultation with the Afghan people and Afghan women.

How, how do, how, how does that convert into triggering change and to triggering this engagement, this persuasion, this pushing the de facto authorities to actually see that it is for the benefit of of of their own society to to do this, that this is for the respect and and protection of human rights of their own people.

But we know, we know from from historical background that this is probably not easy, that this is not something that will happen overnight.

And this is where I think again, the support of women LED organisations on on the ground in Afghanistan is crucial.

Because we know not only in Afghanistan, but in any country in the world that for human rights changes to be sustainable in time, you have to create a human rights culture that the best guarantee for the respect of human rights of persons is in the awareness of obligations by actors who have those duties.

How do we create that?

How do we build those links?

And this is a work that takes a long time, as we know here from previous work from the Independent Human Rights Commission and from all the people that are still working there.

So of course, one report in, in and of itself is, is, is obviously it's not only not not enough, but it's one miniscule element within this broader ecosystem of, of, of how you build human rights in a, in a society.

What would we say to Afghan girls?

I would say only one thing, maybe Masho, Mara, Farao, Mosch, Nemiko name that we are not going to forget you.

I think that this morning in terms of the way that Dorothy finished, I said in the in the in the room in relation to what Afghan women say, talk to us, don't talk about us.

And that's what we are trying to do.

There's another slogan, nothing about us without us.

And I think that also applies in relation to your question.

We have different audiences.

You'll note that the report makes recommendations certainly to the Taliban de facto authorities, but it also makes recommendations to the international states, to the member states, and to the the UNI Wouldn't expect that there would be an immediate breakthrough.

That, I think is what Dorothy is also saying, but consistent advocacy, consistently building a case and advocating for human rights as a solution to Afghanistan's future, as something that works for equality and inclusiveness.

And only with those kind of values can there be durable peace.

Afghanistan has suffered a conflict for 45 years.

One thing I found find, and I've been three times in a year to Afghanistan, is that people want peace almost more than anything.

And a durable peace will only come about through recognising the richness of the diversity of Afghanistan's people, women, men, any gender and different ethnic and religious groups.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Anything to add?

Once again, I want to emphasise on the role of consistent engagement, which is very much important.

The experience has shown the Taliban are open for dialogue and engagement.

So we can use this as an entry point, although we it needs long term effort, but we can have this engagement for the long term, hoping and expecting an an outcome that will be the durable solution and peaceful solution for the future of Afghanistan.

Afghans do not want war again.

This is very clear.

We do not want fight in Afghanistan.

We want peace.

Afghan people have nothing more to lose.

You know, they lost everything, everything.

So we don't want the situation to repeat again and again and they continue their situation and their and their condition deteriorating every, every single time.

We want peace and we want peaceful engagement with Taliban and we see this as the current solution for the situation of Afghanistan.

Thank you.

Any more questions here?

Otherwise any questions online we can open the floor to to those online.

Any more questions in the room?

Thank you.

Miss Mahboobi, you say all the time peaceful solution and peaceful engagement with the with the Taliban, Is that mean?

Do you want to find diplomatic solution with the Taliban?

Is that the one step to recognise the Taliban?

This is not about the recognition of the Taliban and we are not here to discuss about the recognition of Taliban.

We are discussing about the people's situation and deterioration in their social conditions.

And we, we, we are, we are preferring any methodology that can resolve the situation peacefully.

When I say peacefully means engagement and dialogue and continuation of them.

And it's very clear that we want engagement with Taliban and Taliban's recognition.

We are not in a position to discuss about the Taliban's recognition and that's not our decision or our matter of discussion for us, but but for us people is 1st and their concerns and demands are our responsibility to share and contribute towards improvement of their lives.

Thank you.

Another question in the room.

Yes, I just wanted to to know about get some details on you said you that you had spoken to over 2000 women in the in the country and I was just wondering, I'm not quite clear as to where those women were located.

Do you want to cover that one?

Thank you.

Yes, can start.

Thank you.

So there's different approaches that we took as part of the broader methodology for constructing the report.

I actually there's a fact sheet that explains that, that we can also gladly it was passed around the room today, but I'm not sure if, if everyone got it and and it may be of use for, for, for your observations on this.

And, and so we conducted interviews as part of those approaches.

We conducted interviews with dozens of women online and then in person and during the mission, and we also did background research.

Of course, there's the reports that the special rapporteur has done before this joint report, but specifically for this one, we did those online and in person interviews and meetings, but we also utilised a survey that was done by an organisation that carries out surveys in Afghanistan periodically.

In other words, this is part of the work they do on an ordinary basis and we utilise especially the most recent survey that they did with these more than 2000 women in 18, I believe of the 34 provinces of the country in which they interviewed these.

These thousands of women from diverse backgrounds and single women married different age groups and different places and all these provinces on on issues of mental health, the economic situation and their views as to their main preoccupations and what would have to improve for them to see what what elements would they identify as the main points for improvement.

And this is where or based on this survey and also from our qualitative work during the mission is where we identified the the concerns with mental health especially that are that are reflected in the report and that we pointed out as well in the statement today.

And we're happy again to provide more more details on that.

If I may just add Dorothy, in addition to the one to one interviews and the survey, we also conducted quite a lot of focus group meetings and group meetings.

Generally when we even when we went to Afghanistan, we may have met, you know, somewhere between 10 and 20 women at once in in different groups.

So that adds up as well as online.

Could I just mention one other thing, because it's kind of related, because we've been talking all the time about women.

And of course this is the women and girls, that's the focus.

But we did also actually reach out to men.

And as you know, there are many men who support human rights in Afghanistan and support, for example, girls education and, and, and, and some of them have also been arrested and, and detained.

There are also, for example, community elders, religious leaders who are in private at least supporting human rights as well.

Though because of the climate of fear that's been mentioned more often today, it's very difficult for those people to speak out publicly.

And can I just add to that super fast, but it because it relates to Medina's point as well in terms of the engagement, because one of the things that that is precisely not only focusing on women and girls, but that to actually uphold women's and girls human rights, we have to obviously work with men and boys.

And this is something that also means supporting the community and that engagement, that broader engagement in terms of of communities, cultural aspects and working on, on, on toxic masculinities.

How do we counter that?

How do we really build a culture of equality within society?

So I think if we really understand human rights of women and girls integrally, we have to address that as well.

Thank you.

We also have a question online from The New York Times.

Yeah, good afternoon.

Thanks for taking the question.

You called in the joint report for accountability in several places.

I'm just wondering, are you yourself documenting particular violations and perpetrators with a view to sort of compiling some sort of documentary evidence, or are you calling on the council or suggesting the council should set up some kind of mechanism to do just that?

Thank you.

Shall I take that?

Yes.

Last year in October, my mandate was given additional responsibilities by the Council to document and preserve information about human rights violations in Afghanistan.

This came on top of the original mandate which talked about seek, receive, examine and act on information.

So though I'm a lot of the special procedures and called the special rapporteur, some people refer it to special refer to it as special rapporteur plus because of this additional element and I have therefore more staff provided to support my mandate by OHCHR and a larger budget than most special rapporteurs.

But the other part of your question is, is that enough?

I think, and in relation to that, I think it's still important to have a discussion about what further mechanisms are necessary.

And a number of people have called for that.

I do not think I think I have a mandate, but I don't think I have enough resources.

And I think that is something that's going to probably come up in the next council meeting in September.

In addition to that, of course, there are others who have investigative mandates on Afghanistan, including, as has been referenced, the International Criminal Court, which is now actively investigating Afghanistan, albeit that that is somewhat narrow.

And I would also finally like to point out that it is not only an investigation mandate, it's a mandate to engage, as has been mentioned here already, to, to, to work towards improvements, to engage with civil society as much as anything.

So I do think that the, and, and I haven't even mentioned the UNAMA as, as you know, there is a, a Security Council mandated political mission with a significant human rights mandate and a substantial human rights component that works in Afghanistan and is on the ground all the time with a mandate to do this kind of work as as well.

But in the end, is there enough for the gravity of the situation in Afghanistan?

I don't think there's enough yet, but I think what further thought needs to be done is what is going to add value to the existing mechanisms that that are here now and what is the aim of accountability?

Is the aim of accountability documentation?

Is it some prosecutions or are there broader aims in including reparations, including memorialisation, truth seeking, which go beyond the criminal accountability that most, many people may think of 1st?

And again, I bring it back to issues of what in the long term Afghans want, What kind of society do they want?

How do they want to deal with the past and perhaps most of all the, at the moment, the protection?

I think we shouldn't underestimate the need for protection of Afghans living in Afghanistan.

And actually those who've crossed borders and are living in the neighbouring countries as well are also asking for protection.

Thank you, thank you very much.

We must now close this press conference because the Human Rights Council session is resuming.

So thank you very much for attending and thank you to our speakers for being with us today.