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Press Conference- Ukraine COI 25 Sept 2023
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HRC - Press Conference: Ukraine Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine - 25 September 2023
Story: Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine
DURATION (TRT): 3’27"
SOURCE: UNTV CH
LANGUAGE: ENGLISH/NATS
ASPECT RATIO: 16/9
DATELINE: 25 September 2023, GENEVA SWITZERLAND
FORMAT: HYBRID PRESS BRIEFING
- Exterior medium shot: UN flag alley, UN Geneva
- Wide shot: speakers and attendees at the press conference, screens with speakers
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Erik Møse, Chair of the Commission: “The Commission is deeply concerned at the scale and gravity of violations and the continuous evidence of crimes committed by the Russian armed forces in Ukraine and we emphasize the need for accountability.”
- Wide shot: attendees at the press conference, screens with speaker
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Erik Møse, Chair of the Commission: “At this stage of the Commission’s work, it is undertaking more in-depth investigations regarding unlawful attacks with explosive weapons, attacks affecting civilians, torture, sexual and gender-based evidence, and attacks on energy infrastructure. This may also clarify whether torture or attacks on energy infrastructure amount to crimes against humanity.”
- Wide shot: attendees, cameramen/women, sound engineers and producers at the press conference
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Erik Møse, Chair of the Commission: “We are concerned about the allegations of genocide and that we are looking further into these issues. And in connection to that, we also mentioned that one aspect of this may be the question of incitement, which comes from certain Russian media.”
- Medium shot: speakers and attendees at the press conference, screens with speaker
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Vrinda Grover, Commissioner: “Attacks with explosive weapons in populated areas have led to extensive destruction and damage and have been the leading cause of deaths and injuries among the civilian population.”
- Close shot: photographer and attendee at the press conference
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Vrinda Grover, Commissioner: “We deplore that attacks by Russian armed forces harming civilian and medical facilities, which have protected status, continue to take place. The Commission also deplores the fact that conflict-related sexual violence continues to take place in violation of international humanitarian law and human rights.”
- Medium shot: attendees at the press conference, screen with speaker
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Pablo de Greiff, Commissioner: “There has been widespread and systematic use of torture, that in different regions is taking place, that it is taking place on the basis of the same methods and that seems to be a common practice, particularly in places of detention that are under Russian control for extended periods of time.”
- Wide shot: speakers, attendees and photographer at the press conference, screen with speaker
- SOUNDBITE (English) – Erik Møse, Chair of the Commission: “There is a large difference between the Russian violations, the extent of those violations and the incidents we found on the Ukrainian side. We talk consistently about a large number of violations on the Russian side and a few incidents on the Ukrainian side. So, it’s important to take this into account.”
- Medium shot: speakers at the press conference
- Close shot: attendee at the press conference
- Medium shot: cameramen, sound engineers and producers at the press conference
'Systematic and widespread' use of torture: UN Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine
The UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine expressed concern on Monday over the "continuous evidence" of war crimes committed by Russian armed forces in Ukraine and presented in the investigators' latest update to the UN Human Rights Council.
Briefing reporters in Geneva, Commission Chair Erik Møse highlighted the "scale and gravity of violations" and emphasized the need for accountability.
“At this stage of the Commission’s work, it is undertaking more in-depth investigations regarding unlawful attacks with explosive weapons, attacks affecting civilians, torture, sexual and gender-based evidence, and attacks on energy infrastructure,” Mr. Møse said. “This may also clarify whether torture or attacks on energy infrastructure amount to crimes against humanity.”
Since its establishment by the Human Rights Council in March 2022, the Commission has travelled over ten times to Ukraine. Recently, the three Commissioners visited the country to interact with authorities at various levels in Kyiv. The Commission expressed regret over the fact that "all communications addressed to the Russian Federation remain unanswered".
According to Commissioner Vrinda Grover, “attacks with explosive weapons in populated areas have led to extensive destruction and damage and have been the leading cause of deaths and injuries among the civilian population”. She added that the Commission deplored that "attacks by Russian armed forces harming civilian and medical facilities, which have protected status, continue to take place”.
The Commission also deplored the fact that conflict-related sexual violence continues to take place "in violation of international humanitarian law and human rights.”
The use of torture by Russian armed forces has been "widespread and systematic", said Commissioner Pablo de Greiff, and it has been taking place in different regions "on the basis of the same methods". It seems to be a "common practice", particularly in places of detention that are under Russian control for extended periods of time, he said. The main targets of torture were persons accused of being informants of the Ukrainian armed forces.
The Commission stated mentioned that in some cases, torture was inflicted with such brutality that it caused the death of the victim.
The UN-appointed independent rights investigators also expressed concern about allegations of genocide in Ukraine. “We are looking further into these issues," said Mr. Møse. "And in connection to that, we also mentioned that one aspect of this may be the question of incitement, which comes from certain Russian media".
The Commission also recalled the need for the Ukrainian authorities to "expeditiously and thoroughly" investigate the few cases of violations by its own forces. “There is a large difference between the Russian violations, the extent of those violations and the incidents we found on the Ukrainian side. We talk consistently about a large number of violations on the Russian side and a few incidents on the Ukrainian side. So, it’s important to take this into account,” said Mr. Møse.
The Commissioners underscored the paramount importance of judicial and non-judicial accountability, including measures that support the needs of the victims, such as effective mental health and psychosocial support.
The mandate of the Commission of Inquiry was extended by the Council last April for a further period of one year. Its next report to the General Assembly is due in October.
-ends-
Teleprompter
OK, Good afternoon.
Welcome, everyone.
Thank you very much for joining us today for this press conference at the Pali de Nacion in Geneva.
We're pleased to have with us today all three members of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine, who will share their latest findings, which they have just presented to the Human Rights Council.
In the centre we have the Commission Chair, Mr Eric Mercer, and to my right is Mr Pablo de Grave, and on the far end of the table is Brenda Grover.
As you may know, the Commission of Inquiry was created by the Human Rights Council in March of 2022 to investigate all alleged violations and abuses of human rights, violations of international humanitarian law and related crimes in the context of the aggression against Ukraine by the Russian Federation.
I should note that we've just shared the press release on this latest update with you as well as their the oral report which they presented.
And now I'll turn over to Mr Moose for the opening remarks.
So followed by our fellow commissioners and then over to you for questions.
Thank you.
Good afternoon and thank you for joining us today.
Together with the two other Commissioners.
I would like to brief you on the Commission's works since its second mandate after April this year.
So this press conference follows the presentation of our oral update to the Human Rights Council.
The update reflects the Commission's ongoing investigations during its second mandate.
It should be seen as a continuation of his previous reports including the 107 page conference room paper which was released last month.
The Commission has now visited Ukraine more than 10 times and recently the three Commissioners undertook A1 week trip to Ukraine that concluded on 4th September.
At this stage of the Commission's work, it is undertaking more in depth investigations regarding unlawful attacks with explosive weapons, attacks affecting civilians, torture, sexual and gender based evidence and attacks on energy infrastructure, and this may also clarify whether torture or attacks on energy infrastructure amounts to crimes against humanity.
The Commission is deeply concerned at the scale and gravity of violation and the continuous evidence of crimes committed by the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine, and we emphasise the need for accountability in recent months.
In recent months, the Commission has documented explosive weapon attacks affecting residential buildings, a railway station, a functional medical facility, a restaurant, shops and commercial warehouses.
In most cases, there seem to not have been any military presence at the affected sites or in their vicinity.
Attacks with explosive weapons in populated areas has led to extensive destruction and damage and have been the leading cause of deaths and injuries among the civilian population in Oman.
In the Chirikasi region, we met with survivors of an attack on a multi Storey block of residential apartments hit in April 2023, rendering part of the building uninhabitable and causing the death of 24 civilians, mostly women and children.
We deplore that attacks by Russian armed forces harming civilian and medical facilities which have protected status, continue to take place.
The Commission also deplores the fact that conflict related sexual violence continues to take place in violation of international humanitarian law and human rights.
Well into the second year of the armed conflict, people in Ukraine have been continuing to cope with the loss and injury of loved ones, large scale destruction, suffering and trauma as well as economic hardship that have resulted from it.
Their Commission is committed to a victim centred perspective in its work and recognises the importance of making recommendations regarding accountability.
Criminal accountability is important, and so we reiterate the need for coordination and the avoidance of duplication between the various actors in this field.
We also call on the Ukrainian authorities to expeditiously investigate the few cases of violations by its own forces.
Other forms of accountability, including those that enhance the possibility that victims will be able to reconstruct their lives, are also very important.
We continue to insist on the importance of providing mental health and psychosocial support to victims.
We are aware of the progress made in the establishment of a registry of damages.
The Commission urges the international community to make sure that national reconstruction programmes or property restitution programmes are not designed to the detriment of victims reparations.
Thank you very much.
We're open to questions.
OK, thank you.
So now we'll open the floor to questions And in the front row, yes, major value is for artist Swiss National Radio.
Could you please elaborate a little more on the issue of potential genocide, crime of genocide?
You, you said in your report in your oral update that you received a certain amount of allegations.
Do you consider them credible?
And you also mentioned the example of rhetoric transmitted in Russia.
Could you also elaborate on that, please?
Thank you.
We have not made any assessment about credibility or no credibility of the evidence which is being referred to in discussions.
What we did say in the oral update is that we are concerned about the allegations of genocide and that we are looking further into these issues.
And in connection with that, we also mentioned that one aspect of this may be the question of incitement, which come from certain Russian media.
That's what we have said.
Thank you, Eric, Nick from the New York Times.
Yeah, thank you.
Just to follow up on that, could you just explain what is the threshold for the conclusion that there has been incitement to genocide in the case of of Russian rhetoric?
And you just mentioned that you were thinking of, of rhetoric that came from media sources.
I'm wondering, are the cases that have been brought to your attention also official rhetoric from Kremlin officials or from state institutions?
Thank you.
So I think the qualifications for genocide is well known.
It followed from the Genocide Convention.
There is a need for special intent and there are a lot of other conditions in there.
But what is essential at this stage where we are at the investigation stage, is simply to inform the public, knowing that there is concern about whether there is a genocide in in Ukraine, to inform the public that we are looking, looking into this matter.
That is the only point at this stage.
OK.
Thank you.
Did you have a follow up?
Yeah, on a separate issue, you referred to deaths in custody as a result of torture.
I'm wondering if you could give us a bit more information about that, the number of cases that you've encountered.
And also do you have a sense of the the incidents of these kinds of violations and atrocities has increased in the second year or is this just a continuation of what a pattern that you've seen throughout the conflict?
Thank you.
On the question of torture, we have been very clear from our first report to the Human Rights Council, and what we have done since then is to deepen our investigations and the findings, to summarise, is that there has been widespread and systematic use of torture, that in different regions it is taking place, that it is taking place on the basis of the same methods and that it seems to be a common practise, particularly in places of detention that are under Russian control for extended periods of time.
We also make the remark that those methods of torture target particularly people who are suspected of being informants to the Ukrainian authorities.
But the point to emphasise is again, that we have found this to be a widespread and systematic practise using similar methods across different places, and that the levels of brutality sometimes reach the cause of death, causing the death of the victims.
So this is something that we are paying a lot of attention to.
And we have argued that that they may amount to crimes against humanity.
Sorry, just to to press you on that.
I mean, then since you're paying a lot of attention to it, how many cases of death have you concluded have occurred as a result of extreme brutality and torture?
I think that, as you know, the mandate has invited us to investigate all violations that take place in the context of this aggression.
It is impossible for various reasons for a Commission like this to investigate all violations.
We are taking representative cases that suggest patterns that cross a certain level of threshold.
So the question of numbers to emphasise in response to your question is about the widespread, the regional widespread rather than it the numerical magnitude of the cases that we have investigated.
It is a fairly large number and it is also it comes from very different regions across the country, close and far from the lines of battle.
That's what I would like to emphasise.
OK, thank you, Pablo.
We'll take a question on the back.
If you could please just identify yourself and the media outlet that you were also RCL Meyer DTV.
Thank you very much.
In fact, I did, I did not notice any detail about violations committed by Ukrainian forces.
Is it possible that there is no violation in in war from many, many months?
And can I see your opinion about the use of internationally banned cluster bombed by Ukrainian forces?
Thank you.
So, as a matter of fact, we have mentioned violations by Ukrainian forces of different kinds, some of them having to do with the violations that take place in the conduct of war.
Some of them are having to do with the treatment of Russian soldiers that were under the control of Ukrainian forces.
We have mentioned this in written reports that we have had conversations about this with the Ukrainian authorities.
We mentioned it today in our oral update.
So the premise from which the question is drawn, I am afraid it is not exactly accurate to the work that we have done up to this point.
Can we have some details about that, please?
Yes, date, they are both in the report and in the conference room papers.
And again, I mentioned the categories.
Some of them have to do with explosive use of weapons that affect civilian population.
Some of them have to do with the incidents in which Russian soldiers were under the control of Ukrainian soldiers and some of them suffered from I'll treatment.
And those are described fully in the reports that we have turned into the Human Rights Council and that we have turned in also with today Ukrainian authorities.
But both in our conference room paper and in our March report, we have of course stressed that there is a large difference between the Russian violation, the extent of that, those violations and the incidents we've found on the Ukrainian side.
We talk consistently about a large number of violations on the Russian side and a few incidents on the Ukrainian side.
So it's important to keep this, Andrew, take this into account.
But you will find a few paragraphs on these Ukrainian violations which we have brought to the attention of the Ukrainian authorities and we are expecting that they will go deeper into their investigations.
Just a last thing about the cluster bombs.
What is your opinion about that, the use of cluster bombs?
Thank you.
So this is a recent development.
As we all know, the decision to provide Ukraine with cluster bombs is a recent decision and therefore we haven't had the opportunity to may carry out investigations about any use.
None has come to our attention.
We are not at that stage and we do not comment on cases that we have not already investigated ourselves.
Thank you.
Let's take a question from online from Nina Larsen from Asian France Press.
Hi, thank you for thank you for taking my question.
I had first I had a follow up to Nick's question.
You mentioned there was a fairly large number, but I wasn't sure if that was a specific reference.
It was a little unclear to me if that was referring to the number of people who had died from brutal torture or if it was the the broad use of torture itself.
So just because it would be good to know to be able to quantify a little bit that that aspect of the report.
And I also had a question on the genocide investigation.
You mentioned, I think last time you spoke with us, you said that the issue of the transfer of children, of Ukrainian children, concerns have been raised whether that might constitute genocide.
And you said that you would investigate that.
Is that something you're continuing to look into?
And given I understand that there isn't a lot of clarity about the numbers, but how, how is that proceeding in that case?
Thank you.
Let me start with the genocide question and the others takeover.
When it comes to genocide, let me again stress that we are simply informing that we are looking into the matter and we will then form an opinion based on the evidence.
As our investigations continue and they are ongoing.
Then we have specifically mentioned one aspect, namely the incitement on in certain media which we are pursuing.
Of course, we are, when we are carrying out our mandate, looking at all kinds of events happening in the Ukrainian context and we have said on many occasions that the issue of transfer of children, deportation of children is something which is a breach of several international dorms.
That is already a conclusion we have reached.
We will continue the investigation of that field as well.
Whether that will also raise issues of genocide will then be clarified in the course of our investigations.
At this stage, we are simply giving an overview of what we are doing.
The investigations continue.
And on your question about the numbers of people that may have been, that may have died as a result of torture, let me just remind the obvious point, not having access to places of detention under the control of the Russian Federation.
It is impossible to quantify exactly the number of people that may have died as a result of this practise.
And hence I don't think that the the important point to emphasise right now is the number of cases of which we have noticed that have come through the interview.
Of people that were in those detention centres at the time.
The important point to stress is the widespread nature of the practises, the commonality and the systematicity of the practise, and the fact that they are sufficiently grave to lead to death in some cases.
The final number, of course, will require much more access and much more investigation that a Commission like this can carry out in a short period of time.
Thank you, Pablo.
Jamie Keaton from Associated Press Hi, thank you for coming to see us again.
Could you just you mentioned it before in response to Mooses question, but I just want to make perfectly clear, I think just if you could make it clearer on the issue of this both sides ISM that could possibly be perceived.
In other words, you do mention that there were violations on both sides.
Could you just re express it maybe in a just about where you see the higher level, the higher volume of abuses on which side?
And and yeah, it just basically that's kind of trying to understand that correctly so that people don't get the wrong idea.
This is explained in in these reports that we are referring to, there are a lot of different kind of violations that we have seen on the Russian side.
Wilful killings, killing of civilian, ****, deportation of children, sexual offences, occupied territories, law on violations on the law in occupied territories and so on.
So it's a wide spectrum and it's a large number within these spectrums.
Then we are also mentioning in our report that we have found a few examples on the Ukrainian side, but they relate partly to certain indiscriminate attacks, some instances, a few and a couple of instances where there was based on available evidence I'll treatment of persons, Russians that were in Ukrainian captivity.
That's the difference.
If I may add that I want to thank you for raising the question again, because in the first press conference that we gave, someone asked also is the headline that both forces commit equivalent violations.
And back then we said that categorically that would be exactly the wrong headline and the wrong point to take from our investigations.
And as time passes and the conflict continues, the difference only increases.
So thank you very much for raising the question.
And I want to stress that it is even less true today than it was when we first met that there is an equivalence in the violations that are committed by each side in the conflict.
OK, thank you, Pablo.
Nina, did you have a follow up question?
Yes, thanks.
I actually had separate questions.
I wanted to ask about the about the perpetrators.
I know it's been raised previously, but are you keeping a list of of suspected perpetrators and how is that going?
Do you have a number of perpetrators and maybe levels of what how **** level the people are on on that list?
And I was also wondering if you'd say something about what you're seeing in terms of Wagner and abuses by them in Ukraine, especially with the the recent developments.
Thank you.
Let me start with the perpetrators.
It follows directly from the mandate of the Commission that we shall try to identify individuals or entities that have committed violations of human rights law and international humanitarian law, as well as corresponding crimes.
This is a task we which it forms part our of our general investigations and when looking into events, incidents, situations, we always also search for individual perpetrators.
This is not an easy task on the ground.
Perpetrators do not always their identity is difficult to establish, and also when it comes to establishing the hierarchy, that requires considerable work in order to see the command lines.
But this is something we are doing.
We have an informal list, so to speak, within the Commission where we are, which we are regularly updating, and this list with perpetrators, but at the higher level and at the lower level will be in due course submitted to the **** Commissioner for Human Rights in conformity with normal practise.
And the only thing to add about Wagner is that, again, in conformity with our mandate, the least that we are compiling comprises not just individuals and entities.
So whenever possible, we are trying to identify entities as well.
And therefore and that's part of the list that eventually will be turned over to the **** Commission.
Thank you, Jamie, go ahead.
Can I ask you about, in terms of the amount of evidence that you're receiving both from the Ukrainian side and the Russian side, what it would, what appeal would you make to both authorities on both sides about getting access to victims, getting access to perpetrators, I mean, getting access to people who might be able to shed more light both on the Ukrainian side and on the Russian side?
I think there's a stark difference here.
Also, we are not receiving any access or information from the Russian side.
Of course, the Commission has written many communications seeking specific and other information.
Regrettably, none of them have either been acknowledged or answered by the Russian side.
So there is a difficulty, therefore, in securing that information from the Russian side.
There has been progress.
We are getting information.
We are.
Even on our last visit to Kiev, we were able to meet nodal ministries and officials, and the exchange of information is taking place.
I'm sorry, you meant the Ukrainian side there.
Yes, on the Ukrainian side in Kiev, yeah.
Yeah.
From the Russian side.
There is no acknowledgement to any communication from the Commission at all, an important decision.
There is no, as my colleague just said, there is no feedback from the Russian side and there is considerable cooperation, good cooperation on the Ukrainian side and of course.
The Commission's task would be greatly facilitated by greater collaboration from the Russian Federation and particularly by unhindered access to all parts of Ukraine.
But as you know, we have limitations in reaching areas that are occupied by the Russian Federation and the we, some of the communications that we have sent to the Russian Federation have had to do with gaining access, not just establishing significant communication with them.
We want to provide the most comprehensive view of the situation.
We want to exercise our impartiality in the most thorough way.
I think that we have been a very consistent with that, but of course it would be greatly facilitated if we had more of their collaboration and greater access.
And exactly because it's so, because we are so receptive to information from both sides should it come, we, the entire Commission is of the view that it would be an advantage to solicit to, to receive such information on all kinds of incidents, including, for instance, transfer of children.
Thank you.
We'll take another question from Nick from the New York Times.
Yeah, you mentioned the **** Odam and your enquiry into that.
I just kind of wonder, are those enquiries making any progress?
Are you reaching a point where you think you're in a position to make a determination about what actually happened there?
Thank you.
We are making progress on it.
Of course, we take it very seriously and we have had conversations with a wide variety of stakeholders both in Ukraine and outside and it's something that we take very seriously.
I am reluctant to say how close we are to making a final determination.
As you know, it's a complicated issue, but we are sparing absolutely no effort in getting accurate and the reliable information about who may have been responsible for something which we all consider to be tragic, both in itself and also for the effects that it has had on the civilian population.
You know that we had expressed a great deal of interest on attacks on civilian infrastructure in the past.
It's one of the areas in which we have said that if they cross a certain threshold, they may amount to crimes against humanity.
So we take attacks of this sort to be very serious.
And therefore we are dedicating a great deal of resources to getting the best available information on this particular incident as well.
OK, thank you.
Do we have any more questions from the room or online?
We have Carmen Lucia from El Tiempo.
Please go ahead.
Hi, thank you very much and thank you, Commissioners, for this briefing.
I would like you to please elaborate on the last sentence of your opening remarks where you say the international community must make sure that the reconstruction programmes are not designed to the detriment of victims reparations.
So that would be, that would be please.
So in my experience on reparations, which now is more than 20 years long, I think that it is always very important to establish 3, the distinction between three different types of programmes, all of which are important.
National reconstruction programmes, of course, are essential after a conflict which devastates civilian infrastructure and in this case that has been a specific target of attacks.
Secondly, property restitution and property reparations programmes.
Untold numbers of dwellings suffer under conditions of conflict and again in this conflict we have reported many instances and of course journalists have reported even more incidents in which entire multi Storey buildings are destroyed by **** explosives.
So the reconstruction of dwellings of property is also very, very important.
But then there's a third category of programmes that have to do with programmes that target specifically the victims of violations of human rights or international humanitarian law.
Their needs are distinct under international law.
They are deserving of reparations, and we want to make sure that the international community is clear about both the distinction between those 3 programmes and about the need to coordinate them with one another.
The resolution on the registry of damages, both by the General Assembly and by the Council of Europe, do not establish those distinctions clearly, not necessarily the case that they need to at this stage.
This is an incipient process and the establishment of this programmes is a long one, but we just want to offer a reminder that victims reparations programmes should not be totally sacrificed for the sake of national reconstruction or property reparations programmes.
Victims ought to be kept in mind and this is simply an extension of the victim centred approach that the Commission has taken from the beginning.
OK, we have one question online from Emma Farge from Reuters.
Please go ahead.
Thanks very much.
Simple clarification, please.
The Careson findings that are described in your oral update, what periods were those findings from?
I believe it was your last trip, August, September.
And could you just say something about the scale of the work you're undergoing?
I believe this was your tenth trip to the country.
How many interviews for example, and anything else you can say about the scale of your endeavours?
Thank you.
Specifically on the Oman visit, which was part of the visit to Ukraine last month, where we saw that an entire set of a multi Storey residential building had been hit by an explosive weapon, part of which is still under investigation by the Commission.
These are residential apartments of civilians surrounded completely by civilian habitation, schools and other residential apartments.
And that in 24 people died because the attack took place around 4:30 AM in the end of April.
People died while sleeping and in the injuries that followed the entire set of apartments is nobody can live there.
And we heard the people who had suffered both loss of family members as well as homes now and the challenges that they have in now finding accommodation, other services, which is an ongoing process.
Terms of the other, yeah.
And about the extent of the work, every has a much better memory than I do in terms of specific numbers.
But last time we reported, we had reported that we had interviewed close to 700 persons and that was already a couple of months ago.
I can easily find from the Secretary to the exact numbers, but the last ones we had were interviewing more than 700 persons, both in Ukraine and outside Ukraine.
The Commission has visited again on the basis of the last numbers, more than 60 different localities.
We have carried out investigations about violations in more than 15 regions of the country.
In our first visit of the three commissioners, we travelled 3000 kilometres by car along the country.
So again, within the limits, under constraints of the personnel of an instrument like this, we are working tirelessly and making the best use of the resources that we do have.
And more generally, this is an ongoing process where partly the investigators are going on missions frequently and partly the three commissioners are going on missions.
And together we form a lot of evidentiary basis for our assessment of the legal issues with a view to finding, making findings of with respect to the norms we are supposed to use as as the yardstick.
But I would really like to anyways emphasise at the end of this conference that our investigations are really an ongoing process and the whole conference, the press conference here and also the oral update should be seen in that perspective.
We will report more later.
To some extent, what we are investigating may not lead to results.
In other aspects, we will find something we will see.
OK, thank you.
Do we have any more questions from the room or online?
OK, Would the commissioners like to make any concluding remarks before we end?
OK.
Well, that brings us to the end of this press conference.
Thank you all for joining us.
Thank you for those important remarks and have a have a good day.
Thank you.